Chris> Your analysis is truly ridiculous. Of course white European-
Chris> Americans won't be offended by images like Cowboy, Angel, Pirate,
Chris> etc.
On Wed, 16 Oct 1991 12:28:04 EDT, Ken Miller
<kmiller@brownvm.brown.edu> replied:
Ken> Why shouldn't they be, following your logic?? Is there some
Ken> feeling of inferiority that leads you to believe that nearly
Ken> every stereotypical character of European-Americans is
Ken> complementary to whites (whether warlike or not) while ANY
Ken> character derived from Native Americans must be inherently
Ken> insulting??
As someone else pointed out more eloquently, the above categories are
*roles* a person can assume. One is not born a cowboy, pirate, etc.
Also, there is a romantic notion associated with these roles. Neither
is true for Indians.
Ken> Ask yourself the following question: The two great stereotypical
Ken> characters of the American West were "Indians" and cowboys. Why
Ken> is it perfectly OK for a cowboy mascot (U Wyoming or OSU) to wave
Ken> his weapon (sixgun) in front of a chanting crowd, while IDENTICAL
Ken> behavior on the part of a Native American mascot (waving a spear
Ken> or tomahawk) is "racist?"
I don't know whether either is OK (I don't like stereotypes in
general). As I said above, however, the difference in your comparison
is that one is a profession, one is an ethnicity. One can be chosen,
one cannot. ("What do you do for a living?" "I'm an Indian").
Ken> Does your sensitivity on this point mask a feeling that any
Ken> portrayal of whites as strong, effective fighters is accurate,
Ken> but IDENTICAL portrayals of Native Americans are not accurate?
Note also that the people portraying the cowboy have a chance of
actually being one. I don't think I've ever seen a Native American
portray an Indian mascot. Hmmm, sort of reminds me of the movies...
On Tue, 15 Oct 1991 17:25:00 GMT, Mary Jane Cedar Face
<cedarface@zodiac.rutgers.edu> said:
MJ> I still feel that we need to examine the underlying beliefs and
MJ> attitudes that allow Native Americans to be singled out as the only
MJ> racial group to be mimicked by huge crowds in nationally televised
MJ> events.
Ken> Not so!! Vikings are Danish, Trojans and Spartans are Greek,
Ken> cowboys and pirates and bucaneers are white.
None of Vikings, Trojans, Spartans, cowboys, pirates, and buccaneers
comprise an ethnic or racial group. A Native American or Black person
could be any of the above if they were born in Denmark (ca. 1100) or
Greece, or if they robbed people in boats. There have been many
Native American cowboys, by the way.
On Tue, 15 Oct 1991 17:44:39 GMT, Lyn Dearborn
<anchor.esd.sgi.com!dearborn@sgi.com> said:
Lyn> Hooray! There are people out there getting the message that
Lyn> CONSTANT WHINING about every little thing that COULD be interpreted
Lyn> as being racist or anti-Indian definitely DILUTES the importance of
Lyn> the REAL ISSUES face Native America today!
To which Ken replied:
Ken> ** AMEN **
I agree that whining is not a good idea. However, I think that
bringing the pervasiveness of racism in America to the forefront is an
important step in making people realize how much we need to eradicate
it. When it becomes obvious that America's virulent racism is present
in even the most seemingly innocuous aspects of life, people are forced
to examine themselves, I feel.
On Tue, 15 Oct 1991 18:17:00 GMT, Lisa Mitten
<lmitten@vms.cis.pitt.edu> added:
Lisa> When I go to a high school football team and hear the crowd yelling
Lisa> "Scalp the Indians!" "Massacre the Warriors!" etc., I am offended.
Lisa> It teaches people that THIS is what an Indian is, and that is what
Lisa> they internalize.
Ken> Really? How about when an Irish kid watches Michigan State
Ken> playing Notre Dame and hears the crowd screaming "Stomp the
Ken> Irish! Murder the Micks!" ?? Same thing.
And I think it is quite vulgar. It should be pointed out here, I
feel, that Notre Dame (an Irish Catholic school by its founding)
*chose* the name for itself. This is in contrast to the Braves,
Redskins, etc., which probably don't have any Native Americans playing
on their teams, and which certainly did not ask Native Americans to
choose their names.
Ken> It's just that the Irish-American crowd takes it for harmless
Ken> cheering. So should you.
I think that "harmless cheering" in this context is an oxymoron. What
will a child who hears "Murder the Micks" learn from such cheering?
Lisa> And if this is OK, then why don't we have team names that ARE
Lisa> comparable to "Indians", "Chiefs", Warriors, Redskins, Braves,
Lisa> such as:
Lisa>
Lisa> The San Antonio Wetbacks
Lisa> The Boston Niggers
Lisa> The San Francisco Chinks
Lisa> The Baltimore Wops
Lisa> The Buffalo Honkies
Ken> Do you really think that "Chief" and "Brave" are comparable to
Ken> "nigger" and "honkie?" Get serious.
Why did you omit the most offensive on the list, "Redskins"? I can't
*believe* that in 1991 there is a team called the *Redskins*. I don't
know of a more derogatory word for Indian people.
Ken> I'm unaware of any teams nicknamed "timber niggers" or "savages"
Ken> or other genuinely insulting terms.
cf. *Redskins*. Try calling someone on Pine Ridge a *Redskin*, and
write me into your will.
Ken> Indeed, the term "brave" was meant to reflect favorably on the
Ken> qualities of male Native Americans, which it does. Why not accept
Ken> it with pride?
Why not let Native Americans name themselves, just as other ethnic
groups do?
Ken> My principal point is that white Americans are perfectly aware
Ken> that nicknames (from "Fighting Irish" to "Canucks") aren't meant
Ken> to be taken seriously. To criticize such behavior at the Atlanta
Ken> stadium as "racist" is to adopt so trivial a definition that
Ken> people will laugh at your obvious over-sensitivity.
There is a historical difference here between the roles of white
people and others which cannot be ignored.
Ken> Then, when you really need to enlist public support on behalf of
Ken> something serious, like treaty rights or reservation
Ken> self-government, they'll remember you as the bunch who made a big
Ken> fuss about nothing: the "tomahawk chop."
But the people across the table will still think of the people they
are dealing with as tomohawk-wielding savages; isn't there a way to
address both type of grievances?
Mark
-- Mark Towfiq, FTP Software, towfiq@FTP.COM, W:+1 617 224 6275, H:+1 617 488 2818That the virulence of the race issue in America attracts the attention of the entire world should spur this country to an unprecedented effort to eliminate every vestige of prejudice and discrimination from her midst. America's example could not fail to have a profound influence on world society nor could it fail to assist the establishment of universal peace. -- "The Vision of Race Unity", The National Spiritual Assembly of the Baha'is of the United States